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Post by John on Feb 27, 2014 9:43:01 GMT -5
can someone please tell me what is going on in kiev right now? the d**ned news media here is so busy trying to politicize everything that they are not even telling us the story!! a european view would be nice.
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Post by metalwarrior on Mar 16, 2014 9:46:49 GMT -5
Shortly:
Ukraine's people are divided: One part is heading to russia, other to EU. EU wanted to make contract with Ukraine, but its president Janukovitsh was pressured by Russia to reject to deal.
Part of people couldn't stand this and so riots started.
Janukovitsh was forced to go away, but Russia don't accept current government. Now Russia is attaching Krim to them. There are their fleet base and russian people. Western world cannot accept this, so it seems we're heading to new cold war. Putin has mentioned that russians look down on western way of life.
This sucks so bad and I hate to think of country like Soviet Union to come back.
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Post by Stas on Mar 16, 2014 13:02:49 GMT -5
I mostly agree, Metalwarrior. Yanukovich had negotiations between EC and Russia and preferred Russian deal as more profitable. After that he got a 3month-long manifestation of protest which evolved to mass-slaughter.
Ukraina -" U-kraina"- " near- border", originally it's a Polish term. In Russia it was originally called Little Russia.
The legal government of Yanukovich was forced to leave the country, about a hundred policemen and about a hundred manifestants died.
One of the first acts of new rebel government was a cancellation of Law of Languages so Russians, Polishes , Hungarians and Romanians lost their right to use their native language as official ones in Ukraina.
Crimea and East of Ukraine is mostly Russian-speaking so they didn't want to loose their rights. As the new government is not legal , people in Crimea organized a referendum to join Russia.
To make new Ukrainian government legal they plan the elections in May .
Forecast for a nearest time is sad- Ukraina is a big country with about 40 million people with its economy strongly depending upon cooperation with Russia. Big money and strong will is needed to restore order and wealth. But no one is ready to give billions of dollars or euros. Not EC, not USA, not Russia, nor China.
As for new Cold War -I find it impossible. What I find possible is War of Words.
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Post by Stas on Mar 16, 2014 13:26:49 GMT -5
Episode illustrating the current order- rebel gang entering the office of district attorney telling that they are new power now- Gangsta style
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Post by mika on Mar 16, 2014 15:04:02 GMT -5
It is just so sad that Russia invaded Ukraine. They didn't have any right to do so. There just isn't any right to invade to a foreign country. Ukraine is an independent country and Russia hasn't any rights to be involved in that country's internal affairs. In other words Russia broke the international laws. But it seems that Putin has his own laws.
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Post by Stas on Mar 16, 2014 23:47:45 GMT -5
Yes, invasion would be not positive -but there is no invasion till now.
Sevastopol ( a main city in Crimea) has always been the base of Black Sea fleet of Russia . Current treaty between Ukraine and Russia ( Harkov treaty of 2010 ) declared presence of Russian fleet till 2042 up to 25.000 troops.
So Russia acts legal in Crimea now. As for other regions of Ukraina there is no Russian troops there- all the borders are controlled by Ukraina.
From the point of of international andUkrainian right , the revolt in Kiev was unconstitutional- the President was to left the capital and the power now is self-declared, self-designated.
By all means, what is going on is big tragedy. Anarchy in the centre of East Europe .
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Post by metalwarrior on Mar 18, 2014 12:24:56 GMT -5
Today has occurred first incident leading to death. Russians have shot Ukraine's soldiers. Putin said that now it's their time to change things. Looks quite bad. As a Finnish, I'm quite afraid of what Putin has planned with us. Our military is weak, so maybe its our time to join into Nato.
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Post by Stas on Mar 18, 2014 13:07:01 GMT -5
The news are the following: the shooting took place in Simferopol ( where UDO gave a concert about a week ago) .
As for victims it was one man from Krim militia ( pro-Russian) shot to death, 2 other members wounded. Just like in Kiev, there was a sniper shooting at one at same time at both sides : Krim militia and Ukrainian militarians who is still in Krim.
I hope people will stay on cool and out of conflict.
PS. May be Finland should take part in NATO, why not? From my point of view if to analyze the situation : it was impossible to imagine Russian flags in Krim a couple of months ago. But nazi revolt in with hundreds of deads in Kiev pushed Krimeans to Russia, people demanded the defense.
Just to compare: in Finland where 6 % population are of Swedish origin , Swedish language is the second state language. That's a brilliant example how it should be.
In Krim where about 90 % of populations are of Russian origin people wanted to speak their own language as well.
Another example-the head of German community of Krim ( 2.500 men) Jurij Hempel said that they are very glad to return to Russia.
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Post by Stas on Mar 18, 2014 23:28:43 GMT -5
A picture showing difference between " legal " revolt on maidan ( plaza ) in Kiev and " illegal " referendum in Krim.
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Post by pzoltan on Mar 19, 2014 5:55:51 GMT -5
I follow the news trough the Hungarian media, sometimes I also read BBC, and what I can say about this crisis is my opinion, based on the news and my personal point of view.
Lets make it clear: Crimea was always been owned by Turkic peoples, after the Scythians and the Byzantium. First the Huns took it, then Bulgars, Hungarians, Penechengs, Cumans and later the Tatars. Tatars settled down there and formed their country, conquering lands of Russia and Poland as well. Until 1945, Crimea was the land of Tatars, mainly inhabited by Tatars, but due to the previous Tatar cooperation with the nazi Germany, as a "vengeance" the Soviets deported the Tatar population of the Crimea and settled down Russians. This is how the peninsula become Russian. So as you can see Tatars are not the ones who support Russia, but... After the fall of the Soviet Union, Tatars started to move back to their homeland, but their number is still maximum 12-15%. Together with the Ukrainians they make maximum 40% there, which means the majority of the population is Russian. According to the vote held on Sunday, voters said YES to join Russia in around 95-97%, which means the Ukrainian and Tatar voters ALSO voted to be the part of Russia!
Why an Ukrainian votes Russia? Why a Tatar votes to Russia if the Russians were the ones who deported him/her family? In my opinion, the answer is simple. Russia offers traditional values of Christianity, acts again the current fascist politics going in Ukraine, and most probably, respects and appreciates the Ukrainians as their Slavic brothers.
I support Russia getting not just Crimea, but also east and south Ukraine - the lands which are inhabited by Russian majority - because that would be the simplest justice in this case. I also wish Hungary to get back the Hungarian lands which were stolen from us first in the first world war, then in the second. I would like to get an ethnic border restoration for my country. With this acts, Russia seems to be support us as well, even if they are not talking about it. Too bad is that our leaders are not patriots like Putin is.
Putin is one of the greatest patriots in Europe today. There is nothing wrong with Russia wants to be Russia. (as those lands were always been Russian).
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Post by Stas on Mar 19, 2014 11:52:12 GMT -5
Wow, Zoltan, thanks for such an supporting and detailed opinion.
From my point of view, Victor Orban leads rational politics in favour of his country and not International Monetary Fund as well.
As to nazi in Kiev, thats what they try to poison kids with this : ( crowd of pupils cry : " hang Russians" , than " Who do not jump is Russian" ) They try to poison teenagers with hate.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrJC6rU9lG0
Of cause every other nation feel uncomfortable as well. I know that Hungary monitors the situation in Uzhgorod to interfere in case of danger to local Magyar population. Hope the situation will be stable though now Ukranian state police is weak and they form national guard squads of nationalist of "Right sector" organisation.
Yes, Krim formely was called Little Tartaria. Al the habited world was mostly one big state ( Megalion, Hord=Orda=Order=Ordnung etc) than falling into several provinces. On this map we see no Russia and other nations - united Europe and Grand Tartaria instead of Russia. Etimologically "Tartaria" is equal to word "Territory" - Big Land, Big Country.
In documents and tales "Tartars " are mentioned just like "warriors". So it originally has no ethnic meaning. Its just occupation, profession- miltarians, just like kazaks.
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Post by mika on Mar 19, 2014 12:56:56 GMT -5
A picture showing difference between " legal " revolt on maidan ( plaza ) in Kiev and " illegal " referendum in Krim. Well, the actual election was deceitful. So it is not that black and white. I wonder what is Russia's next country they invade to: Estonia, Finland, Hungary?
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Post by pzoltan on Mar 19, 2014 13:05:25 GMT -5
Why would they invade Hungary? Was Hungary Russia ever? Does Hungary have more than 70% Russian population? NO. The lands which Russia takes back now was always been Russia (after Tatars and Ottomans) and habited by Russian in 2/3 part, also the whole east and south Ukraine. To be honest, if Hruscov - who was Ukranian - didn't give those lands to Ukraine within the Soviet Union - I guess no one believed in the 50's that the USSR collapses someday - as a "friendly gift to the little-Russian nation" that would be part of Russia even today. What should happen next? Hungary has to take back the Hungarian part of Transcarpathia! Sadly after the second world war, Soviets force assimilated the Hungarian population there, around 200.000 of them deported to the gulags "for a little work" and have never returned. The ethnical look of Transcarpathia have changed, but there is a small piece of land what we must get back! (see the green part: www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/files/2013/12/Ethnolingusitic_map_of_ukraine.png )
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Post by mika on Mar 19, 2014 13:22:19 GMT -5
The thing is that Ukraine is not Russia anymore. It is an independent country. So you think Russia has every right to invade to Finland because Finland has belonged to Russia years ago? What Russia has done is against international laws. This is the fact. Russia is not above laws. Then again this is not the first time Russia has invaded into neighbour countries.
BTW, Russia has war rehearsals near Finland and Estonia at the moment.
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Post by metalwarrior on Mar 19, 2014 13:54:04 GMT -5
BTW, Russia has war rehearsals near Finland and Estonia at the moment. In soviet union, there were a mention: "let them hate, as long as they are afraid". Russia was weak after soviet union collapsed, but now Putin has made clear that now things are different. Because no one wants WW3, Putin will do just what he wants to. I read his speech and his criticizm to West is justifiable. As a Finn, it's better we stay neutral when "big boys" are matching. And we have to restore our defense to credible level.
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